The Skeptical Mary Speaks

A few months ago I intereviewed Derek, from Skepticality, about surviving his own personal cranial explosion. This was a pretty good interview, and at the time, I thought I should probably interview his cohost and friend, Swoopy. But I didn't. But I should've.

So I did.

Swoopy:So, you apparently know I'm Airwolf - what else was it you wanted to know?

Seth: First, I'd like to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to talk to us.

Swoopy: It is absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for asking!

Seth: For people who don't already know you, you're the host of a popular podcast on Skeptical topics, Skepticality.

Swoopy: I am technically the co-host, along with my best friend Derek Colanduno. We are in fact Skepticality: The Official Podcast of Skeptic Magazine.

Seth: But you weren't always the official podcast of Skeptic, right?

Swoopy: That's absolutely true, we started out - and to a large degree remain, two people podcasting from their basement, talking about skepticism, critical thinking, history and monkeys. We became the "Official Podcast" of Skeptic in the fall of 2006.

Seth: I remember, in one of those early podcasts, you talking about trying to get an interview with either Penn Jilette or Richard Dawkins.

Swoopy: Yeah, that was a pipe dream.

Seth: One that came true recently!

Swoopy: Well, in fact it's a fait accompli really. We have had the opportunity to interview both Penn Jillette and Professor Richard Dawkins, but only one of those interviews came fully to fruition. The other one was mired in politics, and we decided not to pursue it further. And it still astounds me that we have had so many luminaries of skepticism on our program, I still get just as nervous with every interview as I did with our very first one.

Seth: Hold the phone... you turned down an opportunity to interview Penn?

Swoopy: One of the benefits that comes from being the Official Podcast of Skeptic, is having access to Dr. Michael Shermer's (founder of the Skeptic's Society) contacts, and he pretty much knows everybody. So he contacted Penn and asked him if he would be on our program. Penn responded and said that he would, but asked if we had access to an ISDN line (the sort that professional radio stations and universities use that has the best bandwidth) in order to do the interview. We had to write in and say that we didn't have that access but that we did have lots of ways to make sure his audio sounded great, and that we would give him first right of refusal if in the end he didn't like the way it sounded and didn't want the interview to air.

Seth: You guys are pretty much a VOIP operation, correct?

Swoopy: I explained that we had a digital telephone hybrid, or that we could use Skype (which always sounds excellent) and Penn's manager took over at that point and said that if it had to be a non-ISDN line, that Penn would give us 15 minutes. As I've learned since then, generally Penn doesn't answer his own email and leaves most of that stuff to his manager, who then decided that we might get five minutes, and at that point I decided we really couldn't do more than say "Hello" in five minutes, so that was the end of it. That was around the time that Penn's radio show ended, and he then also stopped podcasting, which is too bad.

Seth: I loved that show. Although I spent too much time sending Goudeau point by point refutations of Penn's factual errors.

Swoopy: However, that's a rare situation. Almost everyone we've ever asked for an interview has gotten back to us, been really generous with their time, and overall are just really very friendly, so I don't have any complaints.
Yeah, I think any show of a skeptical bent that is on the air gets huge points just for existing. What I try and remember too about some folks is that their job is mostly entertainment, and the networks they work with stress that point. Sometimes the facts get lost in trying to make the show "sexy" enough, and that's too bad. Thankfully, podcasters generally don't have to play by those rules, and that's what drew us to it in the first place. I'm really pulling for Brian Dunning and Steve Novella and the whole Skeptologists crew, hoping they can get their pilot on the air. That will be huge.

Seth: I've noticed that you have a very eclectic guest selection. Lately, you've been talking about water a lot. Or at least twice. Is that a function of the sort of freedom that podcasting affords?

Swoopy: You're right, at least twice. There were sort of two reasons for that, there happened to be two news stories that broke somewhat close together. One about the sham that is bottled water, and then the reports by the Associated Press that a large percentage of municipal drinking water has pharmaceuticals in it. And since Derek works in the Environmental Engineering world, we have lots of contacts in that arena. It turned out that both of those news stories (like many news stories) were definitely worth looking at critically as they were both more or less alarmist and not completely true. Which I know, is a shock.
It's definitely a perk of being a podcaster, to sort of do what you want. But you also have to keep a keen eye on that, and reign yourself in sometimes, because your audience may not be as excited about some of your pet subjects as you are. In fact when podcasting was new, and there weren't a lot (if any) corporate entities in the market, most podcasts talked about other podcasts and to other podcasters to a large extent, and the question was, if everyone is podcasting, who is listening?

Seth: What are some of your pet topics that you sort of have to avoid? Or at least reign in?

Swoopy: You know, I'm not sure, because as skeptics, I think we can put JUST about anything under the microscope. But I think as listeners have gotten to be more of a mainstream audience and not just early adopters of tech and podcasters, they expect your program to be more like what they are used to like shows on NPR for example, and so they don't have a lot of patience for discussing your personal life or other podcasts that aren't exactly on topic.
And I think because we do have guests like Professor Richard Dawkins, or James Randi or Dr. Michael Shermer, our listeners might not shift so easily to speakers of that caliber and then someone else they may have never heard of, who doesn't regularly give interviews. And that's where I kind of feel I have license to wander, because I want to hear about every day people who have skepticism in their lives, or have done something that is important maybe on a smaller scale than say a James Randi - but is still important. You can see Richard Dawkins on any one of a dozen shows every week, but you might never see Dr. Randy Olson (producer of the documentary "Flock of Dodos").

Seth: True. But even then, we're talking about a documentarian.

Swoopy: Yeah, ok so maybe you won't see a Scott Sigler - yet. But you will some day. Maybe a better example is a friend of ours that we just recently had on, a music producer and skeptic named Slau. He's legally blind, and not a lot of people know someone who is blind, and hearing about recent stories that the blind are still descriminated against in the work place, and also to talk about the new governor of New York state who is also legally blind - was interesting to me. I'm not entirely sure it's interesting to everyone, but I wanted to have him on. I think one of the things that divides skeptics and atheists and free thinkers from everyone else, is a lack of empathy and understanding about our individual lives, so I think telling those life stories, maybe in a small way, might help shrink that divide. I'm kind of a "Pollyanna" that way.

Seth: You mean in the sense that people don't have a sense that atheists or skeptics are empathetic, decent, kind human beings with real feelings?

Swoopy: Unfortunately, I think that's true. The whole recent debacle of the "Expelled" documentary sort of brings that point home. Where the producers intentionally lied to the scientists and skeptics they asked to be in the film, and then manipulated what they said for their own uses, and are marketing it to churches and church groups and schools, and using it to leverage legislation about how kids learn about science. But you know - we probably shouldn't even get started on that.

Seth: Possibly we should... I remember when I first heard your show, it was sort of revelatory.

Swoopy: Another point to having such a diverse array of people on the show, also highlights that even under the banner of skepticism we're not all together in how we think about things.
Whoa. Revelatory. Really? That's awesome. Do tell, what was revealing?

Seth: In the sense that I realized that there was a name for how I thought. And that I could articulate this in public without actually suffering harm. Was it in any sense frightening to you to start the show itself, originally?

Swoopy: That's probably the topic of a large percentage of the feedback we get. "I didn't know that there were other people out there that think the way I do, and that there are groups where I can go and talk about the stuff I want to talk about."
Actually not in the sense you might think, because we - actually I'll say me, because Derek probably had it all figured out, but I didn't consider that we'd actually have an audience, and from that audience feedback of any sort. I had no idea where any of this would go, it was just a "new frontier" this podcasting thing, and we wanted to try it. So we just started talking about the stuff that Derek and I talked about in regular conversation. I did choose to use a nickname on the show though, for the sake of anonymity. And also because I was - and am still, really shy. But that someone might listen, and disagree with the content so vehemently that it would be a problem, never crossed my mind. Still doesn't really. I think people know what they're getting into, and we also generally don't pick fights or goad people into arguments on the show. It's just not the kind of people we are.

Seth: Do you get a lot of negative feedback?

Swoopy: Statistics show that people who take the time to leave feedback, are proportionately people who are making a complaint. But I would say, not as much as I would think we would get, and when we do get it, it's not about what I expect. It's usually something they don't like about us personally, or the our intonation, or the way something sounded, rather than what we said.

Seth: You guys tend to shy away from the really controversial stuff...

Swoopy: We got the most feedback once because we talked about the Hot Coffee mod for Grand Theft Auto the video game, and we said something about it that wasn't accurate. So what we did then was call one of the listeners who had let us know we were wrong, and asked him to tell us what the facts were. Which was a lot of fun actually. And then we sent him a t-shirt.

Seth: So you guys are all gaming geeks at the Skepticality Fortress?

Swoopy: As far as controversy - I guess that depends on what you consider controversial. Skeptic specifically is not an atheist publication, and so while we've had folks like Brian Sapient and Kelly from the Rational Response Squad, and The Infidel Guy on the program talking about atheist points of view, we've also had theists on because it's not our place to tell anyone what to think.
We are. In fact I was playing World of Warcraft for a bit before I started talking to you. But I don't think I'm l33t yet, because my highest character is only level 44

Seth: newb

Swoopy: Yeah, I'm not sure you should include that. It'l ruin my cred.

Seth: 2l8
Anyway... Do you think that people tie atheism and skepticism to closely together, or do you think that consistent skepticism implies at the very least strong agnosticism?

Swoopy: Well, it's a bit of a discussion in the community as a whole, since there are lots of different labels, and to the general public I think it's confusing. Even when I went to a meeting of the Atlanta Freethought Society and we introduced ourselves as being part of "Skeptic" someone asked me what it meant to be a skeptic. And I was surprised because I figured that Freethought and Skepticism were pretty much the same thing, and now I'm not so sure. I think the fact that studies show the word "atheist" is such a hot button, and such anathma, makes some people hedge about using it.

Seth: I'm always telling people who don't believe in any gods that they're atheist. They almost never agree.

Swoopy: Richard Dawkins has his "Out" campaign, because he thinks it's a word that people are afraid of. And maybe that's true. But I generally tend to side with the late, great Carl Sagan and contend that we don't know enough - to know everything we don't know.

Seth: Just like that.

Swoopy: The author Jennifer Michael Hecht has a neat quiz in the front of her book "Doubt" that is supposed to tell you if you're agnostic or atheist. I guess to a degree, the label doesn't bother me.

Seth: But you do tend to avoid religious topics on Skepticality?

Swoopy: What I do get concerned with is that neo-atheists like Dawkins, have such strong views and sometimes little consideration for beliefs other than their own, that the word atheist might inspire people to think that I am against anyone who believes differently than I do. And I don't like to alienate people, unless they're wrong.

Seth: But aren't they wrong?

Swoopy: No, we don't avoid them, I just don't think we necessarily rabidly seek them out. Actually, that's isn't the case. I did seek out the Rational Response Squad.

Seth: Point.

Swoopy: After their Nightline debate with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Because I was so pissed at Nightline, that purports to be news, editing and presenting what was supposed to be a debate about Intelligent Design. And I knew that what Brian and Kelly would have to say being filmed for that show, we reveal some of the BS that has become television news. And that's a serious pet peeve of mine. That what is shown on tv and purported to be news, is stuff that people watch - thinking that it's all factual with no agenda. But back to what you said about - are people who believe in God, wrong?

Seth: I mean in the sense of whether a positive claim about a supernatural force can be said to be right or wrong.

Swoopy: Mostly I just feel bad for them, similar to the way that Christians have told me that they are sad because I won't be getting into heaven. But the sad part comes from watching people acheive amazing things, and the first person they thank is God. They credit God for doing amazing things, when in fact THEY did it.

Seth: That's a point you made when Derek was recovering, I think. About being grateful, not to a supernatural force, but to the people who had made it possible.

Swoopy: Yeah it came up then. And it speaks to what I said about people being different in their views, but still being skeptics. Derek's wife Susan wasn't entirely into Skepticism as a movement, and I think she definitely would consider herself agnostic. But when one of Derek's doctors told her at one point during his first days in the hospital, that the only thing that we could do was pray, Susan got pretty angry. Because this was a person of science, and a neuro surgeon at that, who told her this.
What saved Derek was that we got him to a hospital fast enough for them to immediately treat him, and that there was a doctor there with the knowledge and experience to know what to do, and do it well enough that he was then able to eventually recover to a large extent. That was a human event. I can tell you exactly who and how and when, each step of that process happened. I just often wonder who different our world would be, if all the energy that was put into worship of the supernatural - be it ghosts or traditional paranormal stuff like ghosts etc. was spent on celebrating and continuing human achievement.

Seth: I should explain for the benefit of my readers that Derek, the cohost of Skepticality, had what can loosely be described as an aneurysm and basically died. Read all about it in a previous post

Swoopy: Well, and to that end, Derek spent a lot of today redesigning our website (which hasn't been implemented yet). And that he can do that, two and a half years after having a stroke that left him unable to walk and talk for several months, is a testament to Derek's perserverence and hard work, and that of his therapists. Not any supernatural being. Not even the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Seth: And you, of course.

Swoopy: Absolutely. Susan (Derek's wife) and I are a great team. Since I work from home, I was able to be at the hospital and then taking Derek to therapy and help keep things organized so that Susan could go back to work, and keep her job, which was very important since Derek wasn't working for quite a long time after his stroke.

Seth: Okay.. about that. I have to ask...

Swoopy: Talk about stuff to look at critically; the medical industry. One in eighteen people will have a stroke. It's hugely expensive.

Seth: On behalf of Skepticality fans everywhere...

Swoopy: Not everyone can survive a catastrophic illness, personally or financially. And we're really fortunate that we could. Oh boy. Here it comes!

Seth: So in a recent episode of Skepticality, you were interviewing Michael Shermer.

Swoopy: Ha! I suspect it was about his book, "The Mind of the Market?"

Seth: Yep. And at one point you asked him about the nature and future of human romantic relationships.

Swoopy: It is a good book. Ben Stein should read it. Apparently he believes in Intelligent Design, but not Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" of the market. Yeah, that intrigued me. I actually saw it argued on an episode of one of the few TV shows I watch (that is great for skeptics in my opinion) Boston Legal.

Seth: Oh, absolutely. I've often thought that a three person marriage is becoming an economic neccesity. But my question to you is...

Swoopy: In today's world, doesn't it make more sense to have additional breadwinners, and additional help? And strangely "The Mind of the Market" says no. Evolutionarily anyway.

Seth: It does. Especially if children are involved.

Swoopy: Yeah, or dogs. I think we should be able to claim them as dependents on our taxes.

Seth: And especially with the breakdown of extended families that traditionally supply that support.
You're totally dodging this question, aren't you?

Swoopy: Indeed. Tell me how many "traditional" marriages end in divorce?
No! Ask ask ask.

Seth: Alright... what's the deal with you three?

Swoopy: And honestly, I'm surprised how few people ask. We are, in every sense of the word, except I guess legally, a family. You grow up, and you make your own tribe. Evolution tells us that, it's all that great stuff about in groups and out groups. You find people you belong with, that make wherever you are "home". And we are three pretty strange people, who completely understand each other, and have gone through some pretty challenging times together, and we love each other very much. As friends, as equals. We're simply that; a family.
And everyone who has ever asked, that we've talked about it with, has been really supportive. In fact, I've never had a negative reaction. I guess if there has been a negative reaction, I'm not aware of it.

Seth: Well... I'm pretty sure it means you're going to hell.

Swoopy: But then again it is something, especially when you live in the South that you don't entirely advertise.
But isn't it interesting, that important things are going on in the world, and yet this whole polygamy thing in Texas is getting huge amounts of news time?

Seth: That's a very different situation, though. I think that has a lot more to do with what amounts to serial rape.

Swoopy: I guess I would make clear that we don't have any children, nor will we be having any children. And, again - for that, if we were Catholic, we'd also be going to hell.

Seth: Why in the world wouldn't you want to have children? Derek's brilliant, you're brilliant, Susan's brilliant... you are exactly the people who should be having children!

Swoopy: That I'll agree with.

Seth: I mean, you aren't obligated to... but why do you feel you need to make that point?

Swoopy: Maybe to deflect any feedback I might get that starts with: "Think of the children!" But honestly, another thing we all have in common is that none of us really felt like being parents was right for us. And that I guess would add padding to the argument that people in relationships like ours are hedonists. And, we are.

Seth: Fair enough.

Swoopy: We like doing what we want to, when we want to. And wow - kids are expensive. Worth it, but expensive. But since, none of us had planned on having kids, but we did want a family connection, we have each other. And I guess that would be one of the things we don't specifically talk about on the show.

Seth: I'm not positive, but I think it adds Airwolfitude to both you and Derek. More so you... Derek sort of dodged the question when I asked him.

Swoopy: Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's more or less like "don't ask, don't tell". If it came up, we'd talk about it. Interesting. I'll have to ask him why. Maybe he thinks it's better to keep people guessing.

Seth: Possibly he didn't want to come across as bragging.

Swoopy: Derek? I doubt that.

Seth: Well... we've covered a lot of ground here.

Swoopy: And here I feel like I've been only talking about me. How about you? What's up with you?

Seth: My whole blog is about me! This is a chance for my readers to get a break... And hear from somebody else!

Swoopy: Yeah, and people read it. So, obviously you're pretty airwolf if people want to spend their time reading about you.

Seth: Its debatable whether people read my blog. All my hits could be google robots.

Swoopy: By the way, to whom do you credit Airwolf? Because I always credit Jason Adams of Random Signal.

Seth: I credit Ernest Cline.

Swoopy: The dude who wrote Fanboys?

Seth: Yes.

Swoopy: Is it a logical fallacy if someone says "There is nothing more Airwolf than Airwolf?"

Seth: No, I think its a tautology...

Swoopy: So did he make up the hand gesture that goes with it too?

Seth: No... I think that one was Mur Lafferty's friend whose name I can't remember...

Swoopy: Yeah Jason Adams. Ok. So he does get some credit.

Seth: So you and Derek will be part of Dragon*Con this year. What are your plans?

Swoopy: Well, I am the director for the Podcasting programming track, and Derek is the director of the newly minted Skeptic track. So, basically Dragon*Con is enormously fun, but also a huge amount of work. BUT - we've been able to get lots of skeptics to come and meet the geeks, and assimilate them. And it went over really well last year, because stuff happens like trying to get the Ghost Hunters to debate the Skeptics and the Ghost Hunters chickening out.

Seth: Do you think its odd to have a skeptic track at a convention full of people in wizards robes?

Swoopy: Nope. Works out great. It's the Sci in the Sci-Fi.There has been a Science track and a Space track there for years and years. And so we get to do cool stuff like have the Science advisor for BattleStar Gallactica come and talk. And Dr. Phil Plait, the Bad Astronomer. And this year, James Randi is going to administer a million dollar challenge to one of his applicants there.

Seth: That was tried at the Amazing meeting 5.5, right? But the applicant bailed?

Swoopy: Lotsa Sci-Fi skeptics. Our booth was right next to the Sci-Fi Christians last year.

Seth: Wow.

Swoopy: Yes, that's true.

Seth: Is this the same person, or a new one?

Swoopy: So they are really working to get an applicant that can show up. Different one, as far as I know. Jeff Wagg, the general manager for the JREF, and Alison Smith are working on that.

Seth: Alison was my last interview.

Swoopy: Yeah, she's awesome!

Seth: I was surprised, interviewing her, that she doesn't have a science background.

Swoopy: Nope, and she's a new skeptic. Which is really cool.

Seth: Derek is a technical guy, a bit of an engineer. What about you?

Swoopy: Arty. Graphic arts, music, all that stuff.

Seth: You also do a music podcast, right?

Swoopy: Although politics ran a close second. I worked for the government for awhile, and I think I could have really devoted myself to greasing the wheels of the big machine. But I wanted to have a life outside work, so I decided to forgo it. I did do one for a very short while. I had to let it slide when Derek was in the hospital.

Seth: Ah.

Swoopy: Which was totally my own choice. I didn't really need to get sleep, but the hedonistic side of me won out.

Seth: Sleep is for the weak.

Swoopy: I agree.

Seth: And the tired, of course.But mostly the weak.

Swoopy: And I'm seriously weak like that.

Seth: Well, my dinner is ready.

Swoopy: If the olympics had napping. I'd be a medalist.


Mine too!

Seth: So I'm going to have to sign off.

Swoopy: It was great talking to you.

Seth: Thanks for taking the time to talk to us, Swoopy.